net.sauna log file September 11th, 1997, 10 am, Ars electronica, Linz
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net.sauna log file September 11th, 1997, 10 am, Ars electronica, Linz
Toshiya Ueno & Tapio Mäkelä onTechno orientalism
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#private_net.sauna: HHeater koskonkor Sbather @L16Bot @[tee] *** #private_net.sauna :End of /NAMES list. *** Mode is +tnk vihta HHeater: Hello Toshiya, welcome to the net.sauna session! As you can feel, we are both subjects in a dialogue and objects in a diorama... Sbather: Hello! Actually this space reminds me of a Karaoke room in Japan. HHeater: hi hii:) Are they also intimate spaces? Sbather: Yes, in certain sense. But Public spa is much more intimate and it is real public sphere. HHeater: Can you tell a bit about sauna tradition in Japan? Sbather: Taditionally, there are no saunas in Japan, but as you know there is long history of natural public spa. HHeater: Do people meet there to discuss, have small talk and also do politics? Are they for both men and women? Sbather: Hyya, men and women should enter in separate spa. But of course there is debate for politics and others. And historically speaking, in Japan there has not been a tradition of the public sphere. The only case of public sphere is the public spa in town, but it is different from a natural hot spring. Now I´m a little bit missing natural hot springs. HHeater: Steam is
rising in the space, the roof is dripping with humidity and a rush of cool
air comes from an opened door. *** Mode change "-b +o!*@*" on #private_net.sauna by L16Bot HHeater: I need to visit you for such a spa... I want to introduce a topic for this theory.sauna chat. Last year, in Media and Ethics, Toshiya, you made a very well developed talk about Japanimation and Techno Orientalism. Could you shortly summarize your point of view to new media and techno orientalism? Sbather: As you know, orientalism is product and
effect by image of western people to understand the others in orient. Now
so called western people are attracted and seduced by Japanese subculture.
They are projecting their own desire and phantasm about Asia and orient. HHeater: Techno orientalism is also very evident in many new media commercials in Europe for instance. It used to be the Japanese engineer with Toyota cars, now it is a grinning techno man speeded up to perform with a laptop; as if the western techno life style would have been a distant image of the "Japanese tecnho efficiency". How do you think orientalism relates with marketing; the use of ethnic and cultural difference which are placed on top of artworks and products? Just like painters and desingers used it earlier this century, and late last century?¨ *** Mode change "+o HHeater" on #private_net.sauna by [tee] Sbather: Probably yes. But I elaborate this concept as critical thinking to analyze information capitalism. And Techno orientalism is an ideological and cultural apparatus to make hegemony of sub imperialism and informational capitalism. HHeater: Can you draw a boderline betwen information capitalism and the capitalism of media related products... and the capitalism (or the financial-social-political economy) of art market, media market, and so on? I think capital is extremely hybrid, containing all these levels, and information does not exist as a level of its own. What do you think? Sbather: And we should think that why Japanese society could fit into very much post modern condition. Kojev, Barth. Baudrillard are all crazy about the singularity of Japanese modenization. Already in late 30´s in Japan there was strong debate and discussion among intellectuals and artists in which they have argued of overcoming of modern! In other words they already talked about post modern. But it was totally ideological. They believe in the precedence of technology. I am critical and sceptical against that tendency. HHeater: So... in techno orientalism, the complexity of Japanese modernism is reduced onto the level of the technological advancement, for instance. Could you explain the precedence of technology in Japanese context? HHeater: ()/theory.sauna :) + (: = dialogue Sbather: I do not believe the precedence not at all. But I can present an example for you. During second world war, Zero fighter was a nice and effective product of Japanese technology. Some people say that the technology which was used in Zero fighter was quite different from American or western ones. Now I came across the same problem. So many Japanese media critics and thoreticians and also media artists like to talk about the relationship between Japanese traditional spatial thinking and cyber and virtual culture. I can not think so. HHeater: Perhaps then orientalism has been internalized in Japanese media, art and theoretical circles to a degree. As if the projection of being "uniqely special, different, and omnipotent with technology" has become "theoryoptic camouflage", which does not show the complexity nor similarity of the mediacultural processes in different ethnic/geographical localities. In the west, the cult of the special is linked to the egoistic positon of the artist, the Leonardian inventor/genius. HHeater: theory.sauna = theory.optic anti-camouflage operation, fragmentary strategic mediaspatial action. Sbather: Yes difinitely. In certain sense Japanese society is self colonizing and a colonized society. Since the begining of modernization Japan has colonized itself. I have to say two things for this discussion. First, we should not project the cultural differences into geographical ones. It is very misleading thinking and also ideological. HHeater: I think geography as an imaginary geograhpy, which is not national borders, but cultural constructions of "Japan", "Europe"... or another imaginary region. Sbather: Second , we should interpret and analyze the new phase of capitalism which can be called info capitalism or cyber capitalism. Now information capitalism does not need military hegemony. Rather the hegemony of culture and economy is much more important. And especially sub cultures have a special task in this type of hegemony making. I would like to call this new phase Sub imperialism, which wants to create cultural hegemony and dominance. But please dont define me as dogmatic leftist, I am just critical and a cultural dissident. As you have read Imaginative community written by Benedict Anderson. Anderson also analyzed the problem caused by confusion of real and imaginative geograghy. Always imaginative geography is contributing to formation of Nationalism. Of course Sub imperialism which depends on sub culture is quite like trans nationalism. And one can compare Anderson ´s book and Virtual community by Rheingold. HHeater: Sub imperialism. Hegemony. No, I won´t define you as a d-l, but I want to ask you more details. Do you think that sub cultures can be identified as groups which can act in terms of power (imperialism, hegemony, sub all refer to use of power)? I have started to understand sub cultural discourse more as something which is fragmentarily placed as an intertwined layer in ohter cultural layers... different subjects who relate to these hardly definable areas take very different power positions towards other subjects; other realms... I think you might need to specify the kind of imperialism or usage of power, and what might that sub culture consist of? If it is, forexample, Japanese manga and animation, they are very active young(ish) industries which use "subculturality" as a key marketing strategial difference. It is very difficult to locate the power positioning there with imaginary cultural terms... Sbather: I just mean the function of Japanese sub culture in Taipei, Korea, Hongkong and Europe. In globalization one can enjoy and connect any cultural elements as one pleases. But we should not forget the ecnomical power and cultural infuluence that sub cultures are having. Sometimes Transnationals want to use Nationalim as tool and tactics. HHeater: .... coincidental simultaneous thinking :) [2 kast comments sent at the same time] Sbather: Yes great. HHeater: A new analysis of nationalism in relationship with the new media & art scene would be needed... The crossroads, a hyperlink node where your and my writing meet is orientalism and the culture of the visual. I am interested how geometrical form and perspective in Europe was constructed as the basis for the aesthetic, combined with a romantic and religious understanding of the viewer. Early on in the 16th century (also in Greek philosophy), the... Sbather: Yes that is why I come to Europe so many times . But I dont want to become a so called native informant. I would like to be hybrid and diaspora critic who can deal with cultural politics. HHeater: ... aesthetical geometry was contrasted
against the "crude eastern, barbaric forms". This has changed
during the 20th century. I am terrified of the continuing national labelling
of media art and theory as "Finnish" or "Japanese";
we, just like the work we do, is hybrid. Diaspora critical position is most
useful for me when I deal with Finland; I have the diaspora as my refugee
location from the narrow views; my exteriorization from Finland gives distance.
So I think this is a bigger problem for you in Japan and for me in Finland,
than it is for us here in Ars Electronica. Firstly, how the minimalistic & formalistic western visual tradition excludes those cultural visual modes which are highly excessive, those that escape the realm of technologically "normalized" parameters of the "good & new" media. Sbather: I am a little bit afraid of that in this discussion. I was too negative for my concept of techno orientalism. But we should be aware that traditions, cultural differences, nationalism or nation itself have been constituted . We have to think about the process of this formation or constitution of them. Of course on the other hand we can be enthusiastic for any subcultures including manga or Japanimation. I am still crazy about them. Through the concstruction of orientalism itself, we will able to escape from sub imperialism and ideological version of techno orientalism. Do you think my gesture and tactics are too ambiguous? HHeater: I appreaciate radical gestures, the tactics have to be developed. Looking how cultural phenomena travel from one cultural location to another, and the ways in which they are described (tamagotchi, manga, computers, soap, mobile phones, Barbie dolls...) This approach could produce interesting information on how different media industries are alike and how they differ; how the "nation" "nationality" "technological culture" and so on are constituted... Media art realm does not include the answers... usually. [time out] HHeater: Thanks Toshiya! How do you like the sauna and the dialogic experience? Sbather: Well so far I have not been crazy about chat. Becase sometimes chat doesn´t have context or logical structure. But in this intimate cyber sauna I felt totaly different feeling. It was quite nice. And we should continue this discussion about this topic.Thank you Tapio. HHeater: Thanks! Heater throws in more steam to have the days last sweat! Heater dreams also of Japanese Spas, with added gender blending. Perhaps the net.sauna meets net.spa in the coming months? sssssss.... steam hisses. |